When We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know: A Diagnostic Discussion




Humans are not technology, and our behavior governs success as much as the actual palette of tools available to us.  After over a decade of trying to understand the importance of helping humans navigate change, we discuss the need for a diagnostic, our diagnostic framework, and the fit of humans to technology. Our conversation begins with the context in which digital transformation takes place, and why we can’t ignore systemic inequities, but then dives deep into helping this land for individual organizations. Tim and Tracy also talk about their weeks and what they’re on about as a way of leading into why connecting, being generative leaders, and learning how to lean on others are critical to any success.


Tim Lockie, Co-Founder, Why IT Matters

Tracy Kronzak, Co-Founder, Why IT Matters


LinkedInPollLinkedIn Poll


Tim Lockie’s LinkedIn

Tracy Kronzak’s LinkedIn


Tim Lockie:    00:00:07    This episode is When We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know: A Diagnostic Discussion. Thank you for joining us. We are so excited to have you, uh, join us for this episode. Tracy, tell our fine audience why they need to listen to this conversation. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:00:22    Hey  everybody, you may remember a few episodes back. We recorded a segment called The Tech Includes The Humans, and this is part two of our discussion, which we promised at the time, and it gets into exactly why digital transformation gets stuck and what we’re doing about it. And our framework for understanding how to get it unstuck. This is also an episode where we dig into our own philosophies around change, and we do respond to some of the discussions we’ve been having and unpick some of the differences between the small and large contexts in which digital transformation happens. Also for our friends, I think we’ve shouted out to no less than 10 of our friends. So if you hear your name here, please, don’t be surprised.  

Tim Lockie:    00:01:12    Hey Tracy,  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:01:13    Hey Tim, how are you doing?  

Tim Lockie:    00:01:15    Good. Um, yeah. How are you?  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:01:19    I’m fine. I’ve I’ve, this week has been kind of bonkers, but I’m fine. I’m absolutely fine.  

Tim Lockie:    00:01:25    Tell us about the week – what’s bonkers?

Tracy Kronzak:    00:01:27    Um <laugh>  

Tim Lockie:    00:01:29    Does anybody else say bonkers? I feel like we wanna hear from any listeners who have said bonkers in 2022, actually, sorry, in this decade – anytime time in 2020.   

Tracy Kronzak:    00:01:41    I, you know, first of all, I want to wholly own that, I feel like the best period of my life was circa 1975 through 1980-ish. You know, so all my references come from that era. So like ‘bonkers!’ and ‘far out, man!’ you know, like you might as well just put a Cheech and Chong record on constant replay in my life, you know?

Tim Lockie:    00:02:08    Was, okay, so did people say ‘That makes a bundle of sense?’ back then? 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:02:12    No, that’s totally me.  I made that up

Tim Lockie:    00:02:13   That’s like 1917. No!  No, that’s like, that’s agricultural, like, you know, mid-west 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:02:20    No, that’s a Tracy-ism. That’s a trademark Tracy-ism. It is. Bundle of sense. Uh, I’ve also started using different words for real things. So our family doesn’t actually use the word windmill anymore, even though we have many of them on the hills outside of Livermore, they now use the appropriate word that Tracy invented and that is hoobily boobily, which better conveys the motion of the device than just using windmill. So stuff like that.  

Tim Lockie:    00:02:52    I’m sorry, I just, I would not buy in on that one at all.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:02:55    <pop> Goes the can of worms. <laugh>  

Tim Lockie:    00:02:58    All right. Cool. Uh, this week, this week was interesting. 

Tracy Kronzak:  Yeah – you

Tim Lockie: So, well, uh, okay. On the personal front, our dog got surgery. 

Tracy Kronzak: I know. 

Tim Lockie: And, um, for like, okay, I’m Montanan.  I come from ranch roots. You don’t do surgeries on dogs. Like that’s, you just don’t

Tracy Kronzak:    00:03:17    This is 2022. You actually do.  

Tim Lockie:    00:03:20    Uh, well, yeah, exactly. It is just like, you know, um, anyway for like, this was, this is a clear act of love, um, for my wife, uh, and dog, uh, but more for my wife. Um, but also like, uh, a clear, uh, act of survival because I don’t wanna have to find a new place to live if I had said no to that. So like

Tracy Kronzak: <laugh> See!

Tim Lockie: Let’s be clear, it was like also motivated by self-interest, but, uh, he’s doing great. Uh, he is hobbling around. He’s like an, like the equivalent of like an ACL, you know? Um, and, um, you know, they shaved half his leg and he’s, he is not socially savvy enough to be humiliated by that fact. Our other dog was, but Little Dude’s just like too derpy and happy about life. Yeah. So  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:04:12    He’s such a in-the-moment animal 

Tim Lockie:    00:04:15    He is such an in-the-moment animal.   

Tracy Kronzak:    00:04:17    I love him so much for that.

Tim Lockie:    00:04:18    That is the perfect way to say it. Every moment is the moment. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:04:23    Ya, he’s just like, I’m here now. I don’t know what happened before this, but I’m here now. 

Tim Lockie:    00:04:28    I know, and, and no thought to what’s next. Yeah, absolutely.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:04:31    I’ll tell, I’ll tell everybody I’m gonna be probably a little looser today than I usually am. Cuz the other thing that happened for me this week is I got COVID shot number four. Um, and Amy and I were talking about this last night because we both have immunological reasons for this, uh, that are real, but I was like, I, I had to like black out yesterday after like half a day, I was just like, I have to go to bed. And I’ve, I’ve determined that science hates me is what, what, what is true? You know? Cause I mean I will gladly go get COVID shot number five in the fall, but these things wipe me out for like a full day. So, and then they kind of make me all fuzzy and then I’m like, you know, prone to saying things I, you know, have learned to try and filter or make the attempt at filtering through the years. 

Tim Lockie:    00:05:21    Oh dear, Lord, that’s terrifying as your pod, as your podcast, peer on, you know and co-host you being looser than usual. 

Tracy Kronzak: <laugh>  Yeah. Woo!! 

Tim Lockie: Is gonna be, yeah, here we go. Here we go. So, um, okay, so this was a good, this was a fun week for you and I, we gotta do quite a few interesting things together. So one was, we did a diagnostic review, which we’re gonna be talking about what the diagnostic is, but we gotta do that with a client together this week. And that was, that was great. Um, and then the first advisory meeting for Pond

Tracy Kronzak: Yes! Ohh!

Tim Lockie: Which was so interesting to meet the other advisors who are just like amazing individuals and so, so incredibly fun to have to be on that board.

Tracy Kronzak:    00:06:12    I like, first of all, we love Pond. Uh, so for folks who are listening, join pond.com.  Tim and I are both on the advisory. And I have to tell you from where I sit in this world, I am very used to walking into a room and within minutes being like, okay, this is my room. I will act at accordingly or I will just sort of sit back in my like little sort of black trench coat in the back corner and quietly sip a soda while everybody else does things and observe, right. Those are my two modalities. That advisory board meeting was one of the times where I was just personally like y’all are scary, smart. Y’all are terrifyingly experienced. Like, I don’t know why I’m here. Like what, what, what value am I bringing? You people are, are like, I, those folks are so cool and I am so excited for, for working with them. I can’t stop gushing. So there you go. And we just set up the advisory board slack today. So that was fun too.  

Tim Lockie:    00:07:21    Yeah, exactly.  Um, yeah, I, I was so impressed by how personal, and real people on that board are. So yeah, we are both really excited about Pond. Uh, expect us to continue to talk about that. Um, if we, you know, I mean, obviously we’re excited about it because we are on the board and choosing to be around for that. So, and then recording We Are For Good. We were on that podcast together yesterday too. Really, really fun. Um, I feel like we did, oh, just client meetings this week were really fun. And so, 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:08:05    Client work this week is you know

Tim Lockie:    00:08:07    I gotta say what we do, what we get to do is just really, really amazing and really fun, including, uh, being friends, working together, podcasting together, all of that. So anyways, good week. Um, I also, this was not with you, but I also gotta speak to a group of, um, executive directors from Montana Nonprofit Association about crypto and why to receive crypto donations. And, uh, that was, that was one of the more fun talks I’ve given in a really long time. Partly cuz I, I was so open about what I don’t know about it. And um, and so it made it, it made it really fun. Um, and uh, and a good conversation.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:08:50    In some ways what’s going on with crypto and web 3.0, reminds me so much of what was going on when HTML hit, like the 1.1 or the 1.3 release in the late nineties. And everybody was like, ‘You need a webpage,’ and people are like ‘Why?’ And it was like, because you need it, you know, and the use case will evolve. You just need to get thing first. Right? And that’s kind of where we are in the industry. As crypto. And I think honestly, what I would say to the folks who, who run apps, who listen to this particular recording is look, there are becoming more and more legitimate means by which your online donation platforms can accept cryptocurrency. Please go investigate them. This is going to be incredibly important for the nonprofit ecosystem. And by virtue of your investigations, you will help move that needle forward and legitimize this as a tool and not a fascination, which I think is an important distinction.  

Tim Lockie:    00:09:57    Well, and also you don’t even need to know anything about it to just go to every.org. And this is the first thing I said, like, I’m gonna skip to the end and save you a bunch of confusion if you don’t want to listen in, if you aren’t, if you don’t like, if this is not a core part of your strategy, then just go to every.org, sign up for their widget. And then you can at least be like, yep, we accept crypto, on to the next thing. Your board is happy. Your donors are happy and that’s fine. And even if you want to learn more in the future, start there yep. Do that, you know, do that process, start accepting. And then, you know, six months a year from now, you know, if it gets more advanced, it gets more advanced. And so, yeah, it was fun. In fact, I put a pro-con list together for it, and I think it’s very pro, but there are some things to be aware on it. And so, we can make that part of the show notes, so people can download it – it’s just a quick PDF.

Tracy Kronzak:    00:10:52    I think so, folks know, I’ve mentioned this before on recordings, but I’m midway through my project of ‘Can Tracy mint an NFT?’  

Tim Lockie:    00:11:04   <laugh>   Interesting, I was thinking about that.

Tracy Kronzak:    00:11:04    Yeah, and it’s a multistep process, and it, and it requires connecting things kind of manually that you would expect to be connected automatically based on behavior of other tools on the internet, but that’s just not where things are at yet. So maybe in the future, once I actually mint my first NFT, which I’m getting very close to, I just need to read because the implications of what you’re signing up for are kind of interesting. And I’m like, okay, like before I put money on this, how, what is the implication of what I’m doing? But I wanna report back on that because you know, this is a way that we take ownership of things in a new framework. And I think that that’s the nature of the experiment.  

Tim Lockie:    00:11:54    Yeah, I think that’s right. And that gets into blockchain versus cryptocurrency, which is, you know, it’s not just FinTech, so, anyway it was great. And it was really fun to put out the episode with Justin Edlestein around unblocking blockchain.   

Tracy Kronzak:    00:12:10    I love Justin. I miss Cloud Focus Weekly

Tim Lockie:    00:12:14    I do too – that was amazing. Amazing!

Tracy Kronzak:    00:12:15    For a long time, that podcast was so fun. So Justin and Jason and, Larry, cuz I know Larry, you were sort of the silent partner on that, but, you know, Justin and Jason, man, anytime you wanna resurrect Cloud Focus Weekly, even just for one episode, it could be like ‘Cloud Focus, Hey We’re Back.’ Like yeah, that was so much fun.  

Tim Lockie:    00:12:41    Cool. Okay, so onto what we are talking about this week, which has been a great week. We’re talking, I think I wanna, I think this episode might be called ‘When We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know’ and I wanna start  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:12:58    I’m gonna shorten that to Unknown Unknowns, but  

Tim Lockie:    00:13:00    Don’t you even start with me on known unknowns, unknown knowns, quadrant craziness, like whatever.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:13:05    No, I mean the poly-scientist in me is like, why can’t we just call it unknown unknowns?  

Tim Lockie:    00:13:11    ‘Cause I already named it for one thing. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:13:14   <laugh>   This is, is how, Why It Matters got it’s name, by the way.

Tim Lockie:    00:13:15    <laugh> ‘Cause we dunno what we dunno. Okay. So, you can call it what you want. But John Karlos, When We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know.  And I’m talking about everybody and what came into sharp focus this week was I got fed up with something and I’m so tempted to spin this as I was brilliant, but I wasn’t. And Susan Tobes called me out, like right away on it.  She was like, you know, with a  ‘Hey, hey, Are you – Why is this so?’

Tracy Kronzak:    00:13:44    Oh, this is your LinkedIn post.  

Tim Lockie:    00:13:45    Yeah, exactly. Why are you so down on this? And Susan, if you’re listening, totally appreciate that post. And I went back and read that and was like, yeah, I do kind of sound like a teenager here, petulant or whatever. But what, I put a post up that just said, um, it’s a poll, which I don’t, I haven’t done a lot of polls because the few I’ve done have gotten like four results and it’s sort of humiliating.

Tracy Kronzak: <laugh> <laugh>

Tim Lockie:   So I put this one up there and I was like, maybe I’ll get 10 or something. Didn’t know what to expect. But I just said, ‘Who’s responsible for the general lack of digital transformation in the nonprofit sector?’ And then I just made four options, which is all you can do because I would’ve made more. But, so I put nonprofit leaders/boards, fundraisers/philanthropy, tech platforms/consultants. And then the last question is What’s digital transformation? 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:14:42    Yeah.  

Tim Lockie:    00:14:43    So we have it, it now has 66 votes. There are four days left. It will be closed by the time anybody hears this. But we would still love to know where, what you would’ve voted for on it. Um, and so here’s the breakdown: nonprofit leaderships and boards currently have 62% of votes, fundraisers and philanthropy have 30. Somebody finally put down tech platform and consultants. There are two of those. And then the last one, there are three votes for What’s digital transformation? And, um, and then the comments are just really intriguing. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:15:26    Yea, Super golden comments  

Tim Lockie:    00:15:27    And in, you know when people started taking it seriously and I think Tim Sarrantonio  was like, Hey, there’s no nuance in this. And I think, so lesson number one, blame is an act of removing nuance. Like what you’re trying to do is just blame somebody. And so nuance actually gets in the way of blaming. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:15:49    Nuance gets in the way of blame.

Tim Lockie:    00:15:50    This is absolutely a blaming and very much an unfair poll.  I’ll just own that right away. You know, so first off, and Tim Sarrantonio then said he, he wasn’t voting for a particular reason and then cited, Amy Sample Ward who came in and I think like for very good reason 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:16:13    Brought the hammer down  <laugh>

Tim Lockie:    00:16:15    They did. And they did it by pointing out that, you know, that this, that digital transformation, part of this is societal investment, which is government spending basically. And I was like, oh, well, there’s funders and philanthropy. And he was like, Nope, top 15 foundations, you know, could not cover this gap. And here’s the, you know, council of nonprofit data to support that. And I was like, okay, you win, fine. So thanks, Tim Sarrantonio was great.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:16:45    Yeah, well, I mean, thanks to Tim Sarrantonio and thanks to Amy Sample Ward, because like, here’s the thing: that gap is billions of dollars.  

Tim Lockie:    00:16:55    I know you say this all the time and it’s, I gotta say,  I think in different ways, I think larger, or I think large, like I can scale out and in. But it’s in a different range than you and Tim and Amy. I wanna be really clear about that because it’s not my instincts, but it is yours. And you’ve said that multiple times, this is a $5 billion problem.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:17:20    Yeah. At minimum. At minimum. And what kills me, what really kills me. Like, I’ll be honest and say, I responded with like, oh, philanthropy’s totally the problem here, but not, I don’t think. Well, there are two things. One is I responded that way because of Amy’s answer, which is: philanthropy perpetuates system of powers and injustice, even if it does so accidentally, by playing into the framework that charity in the first place should be under-resourced. Based on, you know, we were talking about on the We Are For Good thing, you know, the Protestant work ethic, right? Which is just systems of power and privilege that have matriculated through our society, you know, for 400 years. And the fallacy of that thinking is thinking that, you know, we shouldn’t have a society that actually looks at a safety net through an equity lens. And that, that is the job of, you know, not the government and not rich people, you know, to jump in on and I’m very well to-do off. And I think anything that pays fair share is important because there was times in my life when I wasn’t and I needed that. And you don’t know when that circle will close itself on you. You really don’t.  

Tim Lockie:    00:18:49    Yeah, that is a thing that is not like –   I don’t disagree with all of that. And I’m still also like, okay, but we are where we’re at. What’s next? Without at the same point being like, those are also important issues. And I’m not trying to say that they aren’t, but I am saying like, okay, yes, but digital transformation for nonprofits does exist right now. You know, no matter how we got here and you know, what’s next, that’s doable right now in that? And I know I’m opening myself up to saying I’m not paying attention to the wider conversation. I am, I have been for a long time, but it isn’t the point of my work on this. My point on the work is, there are actual things that we need to start doing for nonprofits in the moment that they’re in, which is digitally confused right now.  

Tim Lockie:    00:19:44    And needing more digital literacy, more funding around this and better software for it. And so my answer on that was actually, it ended up being ‘What’s digital transformation?’ And the reason I put it there is that I think the only way forward is to get at that question with services that aren’t just building the tech, but are building the human stack, right. That are around digital literacy. And right now those services, where they exist, are not precise. They are like, there’s a lot of warble around it. The way that I think there was in early software development that became aligned around methodologies. And that’s why I just say until we have a digital transformation methodology, you know, the industry is not prepared to know what digital transformation is in a way that it can deliver. So I think all the rest of it is: it does look like nonprofits are responsible.  

Tim Lockie:    00:20:48    It does look like philanthropy is not doing stuff. And it does also look like to me, like consultants are ignoring the real issues around, you know, usage and utilization of the technology that they’re providing or that they’re implementing.  But all of it boils back to, ‘okay, but nobody asked tech platforms to do more than build a tool.’ And, you know, there isn’t enough tangible ‘here is what it looks like’ to really hang your hat on for funders. And then of course, you know, take out all professional development and you’ve got nonprofits that, you know. So all of that to say, there isn’t one answer to this, but I do think there is, there’s no one party to blame.  I’ll be clear about that; that’s an unfair assessment. All of you that answered, like that’s an unfair question. Absolutely, it is. And that, but I also wanna point out that blame is currently happening. And so I actually like that this just exposed it. It was like, then if that’s the way it is, then let’s not blame. And let’s start saying, what is the core issue? And I would say, until we identify services around digital transformation, that’s where we’re gonna be stuck. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:22:05    Well, I mean, I would actually say three things, maybe four. Thing, number one is what I thought was funny about that poll was tonally, like, yeah, you’re usually the more softer one on LinkedIn. Like I’m usually the one on LinkedIn that’s like ‘Here, read this morons, read it.’ You know, like that’s kind of how I am.

Tim Lockie:    00:22:26    <laugh> No one else is under-stated.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:22:27    Yeah. It’s just like, you don’t really, you don’t need to say it because I’m just like ‘read this or live in 1922,’ you know, so, it’s people expect that from me. So tonally, people are like, okay, whatever, this is obviously something Tracy wants me to look at.  I’ll look at it and just ignore their own sort of dismay and disappointment with society at large. So I think that was funny. I think if I had put that poll out, people wouldn’t have even, it wouldn’t have even registered because it would’ve just been like, oh, this Tracy being Tracy. They’re just trying to be provocative. But you know, that was a good utilization of provocation, I thought.  Secondly, you know, what I would say is to your point, this is a both-and, right?  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:23:18    We have to focus on the things that we know we can change, but we can’t lose sight of: they’re rested in systems of social power and social privilege, and frankly, public policy that shape outcomes in ways that even the best intentions can’t always overcome. Right? And you know, that’s been the history of movement organizing in some ways is how to overcome those systems and make real change. So I would say it’s a both-and. I would say this kind of work that you’re talking about, which I know we’re gonna pivot to in a moment, needs to be rested in a better consciousness of those systems of power and privilege. And that gets right to the heart of what Amy was saying on that. And so, you’re right. This is not a, like, everybody’s wrong. It’s like, we’re all looking for answers. Right? And we’re all looking for answers with the skills and the capabilities and the insights that we’ve had because we all know change is needed. And I think lastly, what I would say is, it was just really funny watching Tim be the center of controversy, <laugh>  on LinkedIn. I was like, Ooh, I’m getting my popcorn. And I’m just sitting back and I’m watching this because, you know, it’s just a fun, little way to point out that we all want to do better, you know? 

Tim Lockie:    00:24:50    Well,  and it didn’t go, like there was no trolling in this.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:24:55    Yeah, oh no, no.

Tim Lockie:    00:24:55    I really appreciated it. People showed up to say what they thought. And I couldn’t have asked for anything more and I didn’t mean to be throwing out a jab or anything with the question. I actually feel like it is a question that’s been bugging me for a long time. And like I said, I just wanted to know what people thought and I got it. It was great.

Tracy Kronzak:  Yeah, that was a really great discussion.

Tim Lockie: I hope the conversation keeps going and I also don’t – I was not a ring leader on that one. I think that there, I think a lot of stuff emerged and I wanna, let’s thank Kevin Bromer for coming out. Cause we haven’t heard from him in a minute. And I think what I loved about his response, which was, it took so much area, it was like three comments, but it boiled down to, at the end of it, like the power of roadmaps.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:25:47    Yes.  

Tim Lockie:    00:25:48    And I, 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:25:50    And the power of vision  and strategy. Yes. Yes.  

Tim Lockie:    00:25:52    I want to double underline that. And, well, I think he wasn’t saying, I mean, yes, it does require strategy, but what he kept saying is a simple one’s all you need. It doesn’t need to be big. You don’t need to, you don’t need a weekend retreat to pull it out. Like just a, just, you know, that would be enough. And so, okay. So let’s get into it.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:26:14    I will say the way that Kevin wrote that though, I so appreciate it because I’m usually the one and I’ve made this reference on other recordings. I’m usually the one who’s like, I’m going to open the tone of verbose, arcane knowledge and just keep going until I run out of character spaces and then keep going. And I was like, oh, Kevin, I love you. Like I was like, yes. 

Tim Lockie:  Yeah, exactly. 

Tracy Kronzak: And you’re right. We don’t need to lock ourselves in a room for four days and come up with like the perfect.  What we need to do is have a compass and know that we’re going in a direction. You know? 

Tim Lockie:    00:26:47    Yeah, totally.  Yep, I think that’s great. That makes me wonder, and I may actually reach out and ask Leon Wilson: Hey, scan this, and then as kind of the historian around this, I would love to know what 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:27:07    And Sam Kaplan, by the way, over at Submittable, just did a podcast with Leon as well. And if folks haven’t dug in on that, go do it. I have such mad respect for Leon and Sam, both actually, but Leon’s got a perspective on our industry that is rich, informed, accurate, and just spot-on amazing.  

Tim Lockie:    00:27:31    Yeah. Okay, so all of that is to, that’s a long, very long-winded way of saying, we are in a moment where I believe the best way to describe it is to say we, we, the collective, we, the industry, don’t know what we don’t know right now about digital transformation for nonprofits. And all of the work in the last decade that’s been done by like Deloitte and McKenzie and all of that work rests on kind of this bedrock assumption of professional development that doesn’t exist here. And so the whatever models have been emerging for the for-profit business are not applying for whatever reason.  I’m putting on an assumption that I think that it’s because  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:28:27    Yeah, the hyper-nuanced, Tracy just wants to jump in on all over this, but I’m just gonna let, keep going.  <laugh>

Tim Lockie:    00:28:32    Right. Thank you. Yeah. And so, you know. I, will,  I’ll also say, because I have invested so much thought and thinking into this for the last year. I also wanna be clear, like I do feel like there are answers. I feel like I’ve got some of them and I don’t think I’m the only one. And to, and to Susan Tobes’ point, if you’re listening to this. I don’t think that we’re doing it all wrong and I don’t think that everybody’s wrong. But I do think we haven’t asked those questions the right way, in some ways, collectively and you know, and some of that’s impressionism and some of that’s probably just not being aware of what else is going on in the industry, which I’m sure is happening. It’s a really vast industry. And Billy Bicket actually just sent over this week some really interesting stuff that’s happening in the UK around this. So I wanna be clear  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:29:32    Yep, and he’s upcoming for Why IT Matters.  

Tim Lockie:    00:29:34    Yeah. I can’t wait. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:29:36    Billy’s an incredibly smart human being. We can’t wait to have him here. And yeah, his work is definitely a new angle.  

Tim Lockie:    00:29:46    So all of that said, and yes, I agree – cannot wait to have Billy Bicket on here. But all that said what, what I wanna do is break down what we’ve learned from the diagnostic as an in introductory tool for us to just learn from our own experience, having done this now for, you know, I think we put the diagnostic out and we’ve been working towards it for a while, but we put the diagnostic out in December. We’ve gotten quite a few answers – would love more. So if you wanna go to diagnostic.nowitmatters.com and just take a quick six question quiz on digital health for your nonprofit, please do. And it doesn’t have to be a nonprofit just, for your business, you know, we’d love to see more and more of that come in. But on the other side of that, there is a paid review and we’ve done that now for enough clients where I feel like, okay, patterns are starting to emerge that are, that are quite interesting.  

Tim Lockie:    00:30:50    And we’re not going to be of course, naming clients or anything like that. But the things that are coming up from them are the point of conversation, and not what we’ve told them about their organizations, which have been helpful, but really more, what are we learning about what this means for digital transformation? So, okay, to dive into that, I think that the first thing to say is those six questions form six vital signs, three of which are human stack, and three of which are tech stack. And the overall point of the diagnostic is to put on one axis, what’s going on in the human stack and on the other what’s going on in the tech stack, and the idea there being, if you can identify where you’re at in these two areas, and then with the six vitals under them, you can essentially almost form, I don’t know, like a personality profile for an organization’s use of technology.  Both on their behavior on the human stack, and their solutions on the tech stack.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:32:13    Think what I’ll add to this is, you know, Tim and I have been working together for two years. And when I started working with you, Tim, I took a sort of like pickup trucks-worth of notes and drawings and frameworks that I’ve been noodling on to explain this phenomenon. And I was just like, here, nobody’s wanted to do anything with this. Here you go. And Tim and I each have different forms of magic. And I really wanna call out that this is your magic. Like I have different magic. I can do different things with technology and business owners and partnerships and so forth.

Tim Lockie:    00:33:04   Yeah, to the point about you and Tim Sarrantonio and Amy Sample Ward.  That, I agree with – yeah.

Tracy Kronzak:    00:33:10    You know, so I have different magic than Tim, but this really is like, I couldn’t get here in a way that this does get here. And this is after first legal pads and then digital pads of countless frameworks and diagrams and A to B lists and relationship lists. And so what I wanna point out is the simplicity of this is the point, and it’s taken a long time to get here.  

Tim Lockie:    00:33:42    Yeah. Thank, thanks for that. And the <laugh>, the goal was to create something that my mom could take, and understand. Not that she works for an organization that uses this, but if she did, I would want it to be at her level of sophistication. And so the language on this is really plain. And I always make that point because it feels so intellectually light <laugh> or something. So, you know, my background’s in econometrics.  I want to get in here and start thinking about things like heteroscedasticity, and should this be run on logarithmic regressions.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:34:26    You can’t say that word on this podcasts, that’s a dirty word. <laugh>

Tim Lockie:    00:34:29    <laugh> And so part of what I had to give up is that you don’t need a sample of 30 people just to even hit statistical significance. That’s not the point of it. In fact, I have taken this with, you know, as we saw on the We Are For Good podcast, I just took the answers from Becky, no comments, nothing else about that. And just said, Hey, here you go. Does this look anything like what you’re experiencing? And it did. And I think that’s part of what’s interesting, and it goes back to part of what we say about the human stack, which is the human stack is full of incredible processors. And intuition is one of the advantages of the human stack that doesn’t exist necessarily in the tech stack.  

Tim Lockie:    00:35:20    And so I feel like you can rely on that human intuition. And just, even if you’ve got a sample of one, say, Hey, this is kind of what I’m reading from that. But as you and I saw when we had, when we were working with the one that we got this week that had over 30 answers in it, it also crystallized a lot of other pieces to it. So we’ve done some with a few, some with more, and the answers really do – you can fill out a picture in a different way.  But you don’t, I think my point on that is, I agree with you on the simplicity that you are just trying to get the shape of it.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:36:04    Yeah, and what you do next is what you do next, right? I’ve done strategy papers for a myriad of organizations. And when I do something like that, I’m generally like, okay, here you go, take it or leave it. But, you know, not for nothing, I’ve been kind of noodling around this world for 20 years. So I know a little bit of something, and here’s my perspective. And sometimes those things just get immediately shelved because people don’t want actual action. They want information, and they want that information to align with their thinking. And when it doesn’t, I’ve noticed that’s when these things get shelved. And the difference here is in all of the instances where we’ve done these, it didn’t get shelved because instead of giving folks sort of an outside-in-looking strategy piece, what it did is reflect back to these organizations, their own thinking about themselves. And that’s really critical for creating a benchmark for how your organization’s going to operate. If what your next step is, is a tech transformation.  

Tim Lockie:    00:37:28    Yeah, I think that’s well said. Yeah, I think that’s really well said. And the – what I’ve liked about this process, as we’ve done it. And I remember when we first started, you were, I remember you were like, cause this feels like discovery. And we’ve done, all of us have learned to trust the conversation that we’re having with clients to get to – and so you train your ears to listen really well and to ask really pesky questions and all of that. So I remember it took multiple conversations for you to see what I’m doing is actually saying, ‘I am trying not to hear from the client.’ What I’m trying to do is hear from results that they have, some comments that they’re making, no interaction between us. And then we want to show them their results without us in dialogue with them.  

Tracy Kronzak: Yeah.

Tim Lockie:    00:38:27    And the point of that is to say . . . what we are trying to get at here is a picture of your answers in an analysis that we’re providing, that has, it does have a simple framework with some very simple math behind it, but it actually does reveal in my opinion, we get just as far when I look at one of the results on this for, for an hour and a half or two hours. I feel like I get just as far as when I would go in and do this for 30 to 50 hours of analysis with a client. That’s been really surprising. Now what we don’t get at is the roadmap on solution fit. So I wanna be really clear though. What we were doing before was to say . . . one of  the vitals is the fit, the actual solution, your tech stack, like how well does it fit?  

Tim Lockie:    00:39:32    That used to be the entire conversation. And so we would spend all of it on that. And what I’m trying to do is actually in some ways say, the rest of the industry has that and we can get at it. But if you just have a sense of where that’s at, and then you move on to the other five vitals, what’s next? And part of that is an emerging philosophy for me around digital transformation. And I think for both of us, so I’m saying mine, but I think this has been through the work at Now IT Matters together – has been that the key here is to stop moving, just reactively, moving nonprofits out of existing systems. And instead, start in the systems that they’re in. So start with existing systems. And that’s a real reversal on the work that we did for a decade.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:40:24    Yeah, and got really good at. 

Tim Lockie:    00:40:27    Very good at it.

Tracy Kronzak:    00:40:27    Really good at.

Tim Lockie:    00:40:29    Absolutely,  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:40:30    And I think, that’s not a slight, by the way. What I wanna call out is the power of that perspective. And that is, yes, a change may be warranted, but have you investigated where you are first? And you know, one of the things that I’ve spent some time explaining to application developers and to some degree platforms, is the power of that retention that this enforces, right? And the power of retention is equally as important as the power of sales and the problems that are engendered in these discussions is that the underlying of assumption is that change is necessary always. And that actually, isn’t true. And we’ve constructed an entire economy of selling to nonprofits in the impact economy around change being necessary because technology is evolving. But if we take a step back and understand that the power of retention is equally important, that economy will still grow and you will still make money.  

Tim Lockie:    00:41:49    Well, yes, and, I think the reason that the human stack is so important is because without it, you either are changing the tech stack or you aren’t. And that is where  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:42:02    Yes, it takes the binary outta that decision.  

Tim Lockie:    00:42:04    If you say, okay, there’s a human stack and you say that is its own thing to change. Then what you introduce is, you can still do the change that needs to happen, but you don’t have to change the technology. And that does two things. One, it aligns, it decreases, change saturation. And I would just say, that’s a real thing.  Humans can only handle so much change at a time. And so if you replace a whole system first and you haven’t implemented a way that the tech stack actually works cohesively, you actually stress out the human stack without realizing it because you’re introducing a lot of change. So even if, and this is the second thing, even if it’s time to change the tech stack, that’s not necessarily the best starting point. 

Tracy Kronzak: Yes

Tim Lockie:    00:43:07    The best starting point is still the human stack, and that doesn’t need to be forever.  That could just be a couple of months, but if you introduce a framework of change first, and I know that this is called change management, the problem is that change management has been conceptualized as part of this, either out there thing, or it’s a disconnected kind of version of the human stack without identifying a methodology around that, that is more holistic. And it’s often just associated with change management of the existing system that you’re working in. So if you’re doing a CRM cut over, change management is change management of the people in that CRM. And we’re talking about the human stack. It is, how does your organization collectively use all of its digital systems together?  Those are – that gets it out of just this one project. So change management is so often tied to this project we need to do instead of, our organization collectively needs to use all technologies together. And that doesn’t mean that they’re all interoperable. In fact, they aren’t. And that’s why, that’s the thing that I feel like we’ve bounced around with, for so long is these are not going to get interoperable like tomorrow. And so we need to figure out how we’re going to work together on them. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:44:27    Yeah, even if folks like myself are desperately pushing for that in the field and in the ecosystem, you know?  

Tim Lockie:    00:44:33    Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, I realize we’re getting high level here. Just to explain the framework really quickly then. There are solutions on the tech stack, there are three vitals: solution fit and solution fit is basically tech stack. There’s data quality and there’s utilization. And the idea here is, I think I instinctively, when we started this was like, what we need to test for is things like change management, governance adoption, right? Because those are the big ones, but the more we dug into that, the more we realized, adoption is a system and an outcome. It’s the thing that happens when other things are in place, same thing with governance. And even change management to some degree, which I think you can’t get at those as directly as I think we have thought in the past. And instead those are things that happen when you put other actions in place. So the point of the vitals is what things do – what things are there – what are the input things that you can actually do something with?   

Tracy Kronzak:    00:45:44    I think also what’s important to point out about the utilization metric is that unlike adoption, which I think really is centered on a binary kind of input, like, are you using it? Are you not? For how long are you using it? My impression of utilization. And I would love to hear you unpick this a little bit is not so much, are you using it, as how much value are you getting out of your use of it? Because I log into some tools once a day, once every three days, but, so it won’t look like I’m adopting it very well, but for the one thing that I need to get out of them, when I log into it, I’m like, it’s here. Cool! I got value out of this. That’s exactly what I needed in the moment I needed it. That to me is the difference between adoption and utilization. It’s how much value are you getting out of this and why do you perceive yourself as getting value out of it?  

Tim Lockie:    00:46:56    Yeah. And so absolutely agree. The other thing I would say on it is, I’m very suspicious of standard operating procedures like SOPs that said the <laugh> and a lot of this is because I’m not like the guy that reads the instructions or I didn’t used to be, and I’m a bit embarrassed to tell you that I am now. I’m becoming the dude that. I know, that’s gonna fundamentally change your opinion of me. And I’m sorry for that.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:47:22    No, I’m just gonna hold onto that for a future recording.

Tim Lockie:    00:47:26    I know it’s gonna come out. I know it’s gonna come back to me. But the I’ve watched really, really excellent clients that have taken our framework and have done so much with it. What I recognize is that they have put to use things like standard operating procedures. Sometimes they don’t even call them that. But they’ve actually created such great operating procedures around that. And so some of the utilization is: okay, do you as an organization even know what you’re supposed to be doing in the system? And then, are users doing that? And the other part of the vitals was looking for some of the key indicators that you can make decisions when compared to other things. So in the case of looking at We Are For Good  

Tim Lockie:    00:48:21    One of the things that was really interesting was that they had such a strong solution fit, which, if we’re working with clients, a lot of times it’s because they have a low solution fit. Like that’s one of the reasons that they’re coming to us. So strong solution fit with middle data quality and middle utilization. That’s a very different profile and says something very different than an organization that would have high solution fit, high data quality, and almost no utilization, which we saw from another client. And it was, we were like, okay, this means that they have somebody in there that is doing it all. And a lot of them are just doing stuff on paper and then shoving it over to somebody that is doing a lot of data entry or doing maybe better, like some imports and people are doing stuff in Excel, which is what they, which turned out to be the case.  

Tim Lockie:    00:49:17    And so I think that the point here is that these vitals aren’t independently important. They are, but they together, they start to form a picture about what’s going on. So those are the three tech stack vitals: solution fit, data quality and utilization. And then on the human stack side, we have system sustainability.  And system sustainability is, is your system getting a little bit better or worse over time? And I can’t remember precisely the way that we ask that question, but this is not around organizational sustainability. This is around, when you look at your digital systems, do you feel like we’re trending towards it getting better? Or are you trending towards, it’s falling apart? People often have very clear, like if you frame it that way, people usually fall on one side or the other, sometimes they’re kind of in the middle, but that one usually helps. And then digital strategy, which really is about, do you feel like you know, where you’re headed as an organization around your technology and about around your, your systems.

Tracy Kronzak:    00:50:29    And by the way, that digital strategy thing, that gets to the heart of our discussion earlier regarding Kevin Bromer‘s comments. Right?  

Tim Lockie:    00:50:38    Absolutely does, yep.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:50:39    I grew up in the era of tech where things were slower and more predictable. So my digital strategy was hardware replacement cycles, and things that we don’t really consider anymore to be strategic, but just operational, but back 20, 30 years ago, they were strategic. Right? Like, thinking about that was strategic. So that gets to the heart of some of Kevin’s comments. It doesn’t need be over gilded. I think that that lily doesn’t need to be gilded very much.  

Tim Lockie:    00:51:18    Yeah, I think you’re exactly right about that. I want to come back to the, who does, what on these . . . 

Tracy Kronzak:  mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Lockie:  . . . when we’re thinking about them. But you are correct, and so is Kevin that, Hey, a sense of direction is key. A sense of direction that is written down and other people can see and create visual expectations for, is a thousand times, like you get a thousand yards for that one shift in it’s written down, people can see it. So, even if someone knows kind of where they think things are going, as soon as you put that in a form that people can look at and start to hang their hat on, that becomes exponentially more valuable. The other thing we haven’t really talked about, and this is where digital strategy is one of the first ones that creates a big pull on this is, what happens on the edges of that?

Tim Lockie:    00:52:19    So the low side of digital strategy is reactive, and the high side of digital strategy is strategic. And one of the really interesting things is, almost immediately what I look for is where is their sustainability and where is their digital strategy? And I don’t even care somewhat if they’re both low or if they’re both middle or high, but when I see one that’s in one direction and the other that’s in the other direction, then that is where we find some of the, in some ways the easiest things to fix, because there’s some something you can do about it. But a lot of times what you see is high digital strategy, almost over-strategizing and low system sustainability. And a lot of times what you see in that is a strategic leader, a strategic thinker, like me, who is in tactical meetings and changing my mind every 10 minutes, right?  You’ve worked with me

Tracy Kronzak:  <laugh>

Tim Lockie:    00:53:26    and you and I have very similar personalities. Like we should not be running tactical meetings, Tracy, you and I should not be running tactical meetings because we – shiny object syndrome is not just a theme for us. It is a way of life that we’ve parked in. And that’s really important on the strategy side. But if you over strategize on that, what happens is that you create unsustainable expectations. You can’t introduce any accountability, and then you’re focused on re-road-mapping and getting that thing dialed in, instead of just the simple things of data quality, and fixing the issues that users are actually raising. So,  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:54:11    No, I think that’s right. I think, I mean, what’s funny is it’s not like us, we can’t do tactical things. It’s just that we need to see that tactic connected to something in a way that I think purely tactical people don’t. They’re like, okay, you tell me to lick a thousand envelopes and mail ’em out. Sure. No problem. And you and I are always the people who are like, yeah, no problem. We’ll lick a thousand envelopes, but why? Like, what’s the goal here? You know? Like is the goal to get

Tim Lockie:    00:54:40    I’m not sure that’s where I’m at. I feel like in 10 minutes I’d be like, okay, how can you get a robot to do this? And, well, what I’d say on this is we absolutely see, and I fall into this trap all the time. I understand how important the tactics are. I see the value of them and I value them so much, I am often envious of people that can just go do the maintenance stuff. And it’s constantly ripping my life apart in all sorts of ways that I can find zero routine. It’s just part of how I’m shaped and what I struggle with. And so when, and I’ve noticed this too, when you and I are working with someone who is just same thing every day, does the tortoise part of living and the tortoise part of tactics really, really well. Like I have so much mad respect for that. And that is the key to strong digital transformation is to treat it like tortoise, not hare work. Like, you have to dial it back. It’s so boring that you and I cannot handle it. And that’s a lot of transformation work is really slow and methodical on the human stack side.  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:55:54    <laugh> I’m thinking of every executive team meeting with you, me and Rachel.  

Tim Lockie:    00:55:58    Oh my gosh. Yes. And yes. And we should just say, thank you, Rachel, for all of that participation and, how many times you must have gone on mute and done push-ups. So  

Tracy Kronzak:    00:56:12    Yeah. Also thank you for making us both better and more conscientious managers and better and more conscientious thinkers about our work, because it’s really easy for people to be blind to their own impact. And, you know, this is a whole nother recording, and frankly, we should have Rachel on, but

Tim Lockie:  We should, yeah

Tracy Kronzak:  Being a conscientious, it’s okay to be you. Be conscientious about that impact of how you as a manager are spinning up your team. Like that was a huge impact on our executive team. And that was amazing.  

Tim Lockie:    00:56:53    And for years before that, this didn’t, this did not start with Rachel. The executive team before that with Angela and Joni and Justin and Jenny all try. 

Tracy Kronzak:    00:57:06    Right.  That was before my era. 

Tim Lockie:    00:57:07    Exactly, but the same thing, and I feel like, yeah, they have done all of those cast of characters have done so much to be like, Hey, we need you to leave the room, exit the building while we now do some of the things you’ve talked about. So yeah, I think that all makes sense. The last one, the last vital is accountability. And I always say with accountability when we’re talking this through, is that there are three forms of it. So when we put the accountability poles up on one side or the other, the one side is ignored and the other side is recognized. And the point there is that I think often I was raised thinking of accountability as you get in trouble, if you do it wrong.  

Tim Lockie:    00:57:56    And that is better, that’s the middle-ground type of accountability. And it’s better than the worst form of accountability, which is ignoring, you know, and this is a parenting thing as well. The worst, the worst thing you can do with humans is to ignore their efforts. And I think that when it comes to digital transformation and the human stack, there is so much confusion around ‘What are we supposed to be doing with it?’ that leaders don’t feel able to know what to recognize and feel mean by policing it. And so the only other option at that point is to move to ignoring it. And I don’t think that’s irrational and I’m not, like I actually wanna say,  that makes a bundle of sense, to put it in your words. And so part of what, when we are calling this, When We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know, what happens is that you ignore the misbehaviors around this and you don’t know where to point them.  

Tim Lockie:    00:59:03    And then of course the best form of it is recognizing good work. And so a simple version of that is that when we do our framework, which I think we’re gonna talk about next, but when we do the framework, one of the things that we look at is how do you make it so that you can complain in less than 30 seconds on the page that you’re on. And if users will do that, it is so important to reward that with positive accountability by saying, thanks for submitting this. We’re taking it, we’re looking at it. Here’s the update on it. Here’s what we did with it. You know? And so when accountability is working really well, we get to a place where we’re looking at, this is, you’re actually making the system better.  

Tim Lockie:    00:59:52    And you’re accountable to the users that are submitting things to you for making the system better. And so that’s my last point on all of this is that part of what we’ve done together is figure out How do the dominoes fall around this work? How do you act on it? And I feel like if there’s magic from me on it, it is looking at the numbers and being able to say, I think this is what’s going on at a high level with the organization. And then understanding here is, with these six vitals, here is the order that we need to approach this on. And so far it’s been the same order every time. And I think that that’s one of the biggest learnings for us is that there is a way to work on this.  

Tim Lockie:    01:00:45    And Kevin, to your point, the absolute first step is a roadmap. It’s digital strategy and starting there. And I don’t wanna say more about that because I feel like you can’t – there’s more to it. And I would be afraid for people to just like, like try and execute on these one at a time. That’s not how it works.  I’m not trying to turn this episode into a sales call, but what I will say is, we have the diagnostic review to talk all this through with organizations. It’s sliding scale so that smaller organizations can afford it. And what we are able to do in a three hour session with a team around just understanding, here’s what it looks like. And here’s, what’s next for you really gets at, here’s what we think we know about what you don’t know and that’s what the diagnostic is supposed to do. And it doesn’t mean that we’re not learning more, but I also feel like we have learned quite a bit about that in this process, in dialing this in. 

Tracy Kronzak:    01:01:47    Well, I would offer two things. And then I think that’s like the way to kind of wrap this up and put a bow on it. But the two things I will offer is one, it’s funny, you take it to parenting, which is absolutely a skillset that I’m learning and I’ve shared on this recording before, I kind of grew up rough. We didn’t, without getting into the big story of it, which you can always listen to. Cuz I think I recorded a chunk of it, but it’s taken my mom 85 years to finally say to me quietly over dinner one night, ‘Hey, your childhood was pretty heinous, huh?’ <laugh> And you know, that’s all I need from mom, right? But why I’m even saying that is because this is sort of a no judgment, no shame.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:02:42    We’re all products of our upbringing kind of process. And it is perfectly natural. And as I’m learning as a parent, perfectly natural to just resort to the shit that you know works, right? And for some of us, the stuff that we know works, isn’t healthy for where we want to go. And that’s been a huge lesson of parenting. And I think leading organizations through this, as leaders of organizations, as business people, we need to give ourselves that absolution of shame so we can get to the heart of the matter. And it is so easy to ignore things because our fears, our resentments, our shame, our unwillingness to learn, our absolute insecurities as individuals will hold us back. But when we dive into it, the other thing I will say is in all of these works that we’ve done with these clients, there’s profound relief, and that’s also true with parenting. You validate the positive and folks are super relieved. They’re like, yeah. And if you’re able to sort of shamelessly and forthrightly say, here’s the stuff we need to work on, it’s actually profoundly relieving. And that has been a common thread that I’ve observed in all of these engagements is the profound relief of just discovering what is.  

Tim Lockie:    01:04:15    Yeah. Yeah, I’m so glad that you’re, I’m so glad we’re ending on this point. And it’s a really important one, which is that, what we did set out to do was to say, here are some handholds that you should not be ashamed about. Like there’s no good-bad here. There’s where you’re at. And part of what’s going on in the human stack is that human behavior is emotionally led. Right?  And so if you, but these aren’t emotions and I think that’s part of the point is what we wanna say is if you start to talk about these things, you can start to get at the emotions that surround them. And when you unwrap those emotions. And you’re exactly right. You make it a shame-free place to talk. There’s no moral failure for being where you’re at on these vitals. That’s fine.  

Tim Lockie:    01:05:16    That’s where you’re at. It becomes such a different conversation and you can, and also I think there’s a lot of trauma responses around technology. There’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of frustration. There’s a lot of learned helplessness, which, and so part of what we’re doing is taking, and especially from people who have had the most resistance to technology, that’s shrouded in a lot of fear and frustration and social shaming, like it’s embarrassing to not be good at something. And so, yeah, I think a lot of what we are trying to do is say it’s better to be where we’re at and then how do we move forward? And that happens,to your point, yesterday on the, We Are For Good podcast of the power of a conversation. And I think that what I would say on the review is that when we host the conversation, we can do it in a way that releases a lot of the tension that’s existed around this for a long time, because we’re a new agent in the conversation and we can kind of equalize some of that. And that’s been really interesting to watch as well.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:06:30    Yeah. And I absolutely think by the way, Tim, to our earlier discussion around, What’s the Tim magic? What’s the Tracy magic?  Is this foreshadowing? I don’t know, but I think, based on where you and I are going next, yeah, you should absolutely sell this because this is Tim magic. This is the thing that I came to rely upon you for, as a leader, over the past two years and said, okay, Tim gets this in a way that I don’t. And I get some shit that Tim doesn’t get and that’s okay. But if we didn’t make an intentional space around understanding and dissecting that we would’ve gone bonkers with each other pretty quick, but we 

Tim Lockie: I think so 

Tracy Kronzak: We created a space where, and through the nudging of all the people we’ve listed, it’s like, look, you two, come into a room and it’s like, whatever’s happening stops.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:07:32    You know? And we’re like, okay, if that’s true, then here’s how we both have to play our roles and parts in that. And I think this is just another way of saying it’s okay to have something that feels like an unnatural motion, but I don’t look at my Peloton and wish I were biking on it. I get on my Peloton and I let them validate my feelings. I cry a little bit. I drink water and no matter how lousy of a day I’m having or how poorly I’ve done on the leaderboard, it doesn’t matter because when I get off, I feel better. And I think that’s the kind of process we need for technology. And that’s what this work has culminated in for you.  

Tim Lockie:    01:08:17    We’re ending right there. That is such a great image of nobody wants to, and yet you feel better after. So, and thanks for those nice words.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:08:29    Oh, absolutely. It’s easy. Tim, you’ve said nice words to me before, and I’m like, ah, leave me alone. <laugh> you know, so here’s some nice words back.  

Tim Lockie:    01:08:37    I like nice words. I’m not embarrassed. I crave it like, yeah, no, tell me good things about myself. I’m not too ashamed to ask for that. So anyway 

Tracy Kronzak:    01:08:46    <laugh> Thanks everybody.

Tim Lockie:  Yeah. Thank you

Tracy Kronzak:   Our listeners are amazing.

Tim Lockie:    01:08:49    Those of you that listened all the way through, you deserve a t-shirt or something. Uh, not that we have one, but you know, you deserve one

Tracy Kronzak:    01:08:56    Not yet, we’re working on just getting better signage right now, but  

Tim Lockie:    01:09:00    We both hope you have a, we hope you have a t-shirt. Put your favorite one on in our honor and say, ‘Good job, you, for listening all the way to the end.’ And we are ending right there.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:09:13    This is Tracy Kronzak

Tim Lockie:    01:09:15    And I’m Tim Lockie.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:09:16    And you’ve been listening to Why IT Matters, an independent production that captures our passions, personalities, and purpose for technology as applied to the impact economy.  

Tim Lockie:    01:09:27    All of that’s important, but even more important, we are here to have fun and introduce some of the people and ideas that keep us up at night and get us out of bed in the morning.  

Tracy Kronzak:    01:09:36    We are so grateful that you’ve been listening to us. We have no idea why you’d wanna do that. Maybe you lost a bet. Maybe you’re stuck in a car with someone else controlling the sound system, or maybe you are truly interested in what we have to say.  

Tim Lockie:    01:09:52    Whatever the reason, whether it’s a bet or you’re a believer, would you hit subscribe? Or if you’ve already done that, would you mind leaving us a review? And if you’re really brave or wanna punish someone, please recommend this podcast to your friends, enemies, and family.

Tracy Kronzak:    01:10:07    And all kidding aside. Thanks for tuning in. And we are so glad that you’re here. 


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